Pet Peeves
Here's a pretty old post from the blog archives of Geekery Today; it was written about 19 years ago, in 2005, on the World Wide Web.
There’s quite the debate raging over at Catallarchy, in reply to comments condemning Harry Truman as a terrorist as bad, or worse, than Osama bin Laden:
My view is the direct opposite of what they teach in government run schools. They teach that Truman’s action [the use of atomic weapons] was a heroic choice that saved many American lives. With a similar line of reasoning, a friend of mine argued that the massacre of civilians during war may be justified if the reward is high enough. He hesitated to make a judgment in the particular instance of Harry Truman’s wartime actions, claiming that the good of saving American troops at least partially offset the bad of incinerating Japanese homes and families.
Many other men have used logic similar to Truman’s supporters to justify attacking civilian targets to further national objectives. However, I don’t think my American friends would hesitate to condemn their actions because they don’t bat for the home team.
For example, the name
Osama bin Ladenhas taken its place among Hitler and Satan in the pantheon of evil. The reason? He thinks freeing the Arab world from Western imperial influences is important enough to sacrifice civilian lives. We might call him the Harry Truman of the Middle East.As most Americans condemn bin Laden for putting civilians in harm’s way, so too do I condemn Truman. If bin Laden is a
terrorist, then so is Truman. In fact, Truman’s actions are more indefensible because eventual victory was available through conventional military means. For bin Laden, direct military action, against the most feared armed force in all of history, is out of the question.Americans have a perverse and dangerous view of their place in the world. Until we realize that our civilians are not worth more than other country’s civilians and that our leaders do not operate within a sacred halo that allows them to turn ugly sins into holy acts, America will continue to be a source of great suffering.
Now, I think that Jacob is right on here, and that the shameless apology for mass murder, as long as it happens under the Stars and Stripes, may very well be the most sickening feature in all of American education. But the fish I want to fry today is meta-ethical, not political, so if you want to argue about the massacres at Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Tokyo, etc., feel free to do so, but the point I want to call attention to is actually off to one side of the debate. Here’s a comment in the thread from Dave
, howling in protest (emphasis added):
Jacob’s post is about moral relativism gone out of control. Maybe next this
libertarianwill compare Timothy McVeigh to Murray Rothbard because both harbored anti-government feelings. Look at the passive posture he wants the United States to assume. …
And blah, blah, blah.
I pick this out because it highlights a pet peeve of mine. The Right–thanks to the influence of the Christian Right and fundamentalist ideas about the nature of secular modernism–have been throwing around the phrase moral relativism
in public debate over the past ten or twenty years, and every year that goes by they seem to get further and further from having any clue at all what it means. Here we have a particularly dramatic case in point: not only is there there is absolutely nothing in Jacob’s post which either entails or even suggests moral relativism. In point of fact, Jacob’s comments demand that moral relativism be rejected, and that moral principles be applied universally, rather than applied ad hoc depending on your relationship to the agent being judged.
It’s no sin not to know meta-ethical theory, but if you’re going to use the terms, you ought to know what they mean. Moral relativism
does not mean being lax about taboos that you shouldn’t be lax about
; far less does it mean drawing a mistaken comparison in ethics
. Moral relativism is the doctrine that one and the same action can be both right and wrong at the same time–that is, that questions of moral value can only be answered relative to some frame of reference that can change from one judgment to the next. For example, some people have believed (wrongly) that whether an action is right or wrong depends on whether the person making the moral judgment has a feeling of approval or disapproval towards it; other people have believed (also wrongly) that whether an action is right or wrong depends on whether or not the person making the moral judgment lives in a society in which the action is generally praised, generally condemned, or generally considered neutral. (For an excellent discussion of, and critical reply to, actual moral relativism, see Chapter III of G. E. Moore’s Ethics [1912].)
Now, Dave might think that Jacob’s moral principles (for example, that deliberately slaughtering thousands or hundreds of thousands of civilians in pursuit of your goals is wrong, no matter what) are mistaken. I don’t think they are, but that’s not the point here. The point is that Jacob is insisting on principled ethical judgments (even if you think the principles are wrong) and he is not claiming anywhere, ever, that the applicability of those principles is relative to the speaker’s feelings, or culture, or relation to the person carrying out the slaughter, or relation to the victims, or anything of the sort. Quite the contrary; he’s insisting that moral principles, which he claims we insist on in bin Laden’s case, ought to be applied absolutely and for everyone. That’s an outright rejection of relativism and the excuses for atrocities that relativism so happily provides.
On the other hand, I can’t say the same for these comments:
If you don’t believe that your country’s citizens are
worth morethan the citizens of other countries — that is, entitled to live even if it means the death of citizens of other countries — I don’t want to be in the same foxhole with you.
But of course the comments come not from Jacob, but from the hawkish Tom
, in protest of Jacob’s point. The implied conclusion — that subjects of other States shouldn’t be treated as though they have as much of a right to life as the subjects of your own State — is a textbook case of moral relativism. (Specifically, in this case, the claim that fundamental moral obligations, like the rights of innocents not to be burned alive as a sacrifice for others, can only be decided relative to the relationship between the you and the victim–if you are subjects of the same State then it is not O.K., but if you are subjects of different States, then anything up to and including dropping a fucking nuclear bomb on their heads is, apparently, acceptable.) Maybe Jacob’s principles are right and maybe they’re wrong; but he is employing principles, and insisting that they are universally binding. Tom, on the other hand, is explicitly stating that moral principles are binding relative to one group of people and mere breath relative to another. Yet it is Jacob, not Tom, who is denounced as a moral relativist
; this is nothing but darkening counsel with words without knowledge.
The kind of argument that Tom uses is, of course, a method of excuse used all the time by the Right: the idea that any means at all are acceptable in warfare, because our moral obligations end at borders on a map, and so the pursuit of victory
can trump any and every other moral consideration. Of course, just saying that a view is relativist is not the same thing as saying that it is false; maybe there are some good arguments for relativism. I haven’t found any, and I think there are decisive arguments against it, but it’s an open philosophical topic. But my concern here is about the proper use of terms, and about consistency; if you are going to support a bloody and unapologetic form of relativism, then you had better argue for it, and you had better not pretend that you’re opposed to it. Yet it seems that somehow the self-appointed arch-nemeses of moral relativism never do get around to condemning this sort of blatant disregard for universality in ethics–perhaps because their situation is as the Prophet has written: We have met the enemy, and they is us.
Kevin Vallier /#
Charles,
Good post. Two responses.
One, a quote from the great libertarian Ralph Raico: “If Harry Truman wasn’t a war criminal, then no one ever was.”
I recommend these Raico, anti-Truman pieces:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/raico/raico20.html http://www.lewrockwell.com/raico/raico22.html
Second, a small point: It isn’t necessarily true that saying the lives of your citizens are more valuable than the lives of non-citizens is moral relativism. It just implies something false – that an individual’s worth is determined by whether she resides within the same borders as you do.
It isn’t clear to me why this immediately implies that a moral norm is true and false at the same time, however. Of course, it does imply that the moral norm “All human life is sacred.” is false, whereas the people who are committed to denying this are also the ones who most loudly affirm it. However, that’s not really moral relativism either, as they aren’t proclaiming the contradiction as a doctrine.
That just raises the question about whether one can be a moral relativist if one denies that moral relativism is true.
I wonder – it seems to me that any position that first appears to be a moral relativist one can’t be shown in some way to actually not be relativist at all. Suppose someone said both of the following:
1) I can kill people; it’s morally licit. 2) You cannot kill people; it’s morally illicit.
Now, that seems like a prime example of moral relativism. But suppose you believed something further:
3) I have moral rights, objectively, that you do not have.
Of course, those three comments altogether do not constitute the position of a moral relativist.
Maybe the moral relativist/moral objectivist distinction is something like the egoist/altruist one. But this is just a wild speculation.
By the way, I think there’s a case that individuals should act as if those most proximate to them have the most value, although I do not think a human being’s intrinsic worth varies due to nationality. That’s outrageous and absurd.
But to be fair to the Right, that’s probably where their confusion is coming from. They know that those cosmopolitan leftists who say that we should care as much about those starving in Africa as we do about our own children are incorrect. Where they’re wrong is in concluding that we haven’t really got moral obligations to them at all.
Discussed at randomwalks.com /#
Dru Blood - I believe in the inherent goodness of all beings:
Dave /#
I guess the approach taken by Jacob is one of my pet peeves. As you say moral relativism is not the best term for it. False moral equivalence is what I’m talking about. OK, so I’m somewhat rightwing, actually a reformed LBJ liberal. Leftists bring up this issue of fairness, symmetry and equity all the time. It is hard to answer them by saying
But why is the accusation only leveled at one side? If the interrogator is so fair and balanced how come he never says things like Instead the leftist always hurls his charges at his own people and his own country. That is why I call them self hating. They are so concerned about being fair to the who always gets a pass that they neglect their own out of a sense of shame and guilt. Jacob seems to be mad at the schools and his teachers for lying to him and not showing that mass murderer Truman for what he was. I guess the same charge would have to apply to Roosevelt, who started the American bombing of civilians.I would like to know just what is the purpose Jacob’s raising the issue of Truman who was president 60 years ago any way. Why didn’t he compare Bin Laden to Timothy McVeigh? Surely there is more similarity between these two than Truman. If he just wanted to compare him to someone bad why not Hitler or Pontius Pilate? I thought he might be trying to undermine the righteous indignation of Americans, so they would not feel they have the moral authority to pursue Osama. You said that was wrong but instead we should react equally to both Truman and Osama, since their acts are morally equivalent. Does that mean that in the name of moral consistency we should send the marines in to kill Bin Laden and revise all the school textbooks that say anything positive about Truman? Should we tear down the Truman library? After all we wouldn’t have an Osama Bin Laden library. Should Truman’s relatives have to pay reparations? In my opinion the entire idea of a Truman/Bin Laden connection is a non- sequitur and is absurd.
Sergio Méndez /#
Charles:
Good post, althought, I have a doubt about it. I am not sure if what you imply by a moral relativist is exactly what I had in mind. You seem to present moral relativists more as situationists (in A situation, B is good and in C situation B is bad). That sounds fine, but I wonder if people like myself (moral non-cognontivists) who think that moral statements cannot be qualified as true or false, cause they are simply valorative assertions and not a predicate about reality, are moral relativists too…
For Dave:
You know what is the problem we in the left have with moral judgments of the right? That they are hypocrite. I think the comparison between Bin Laden (or most of American presidents, specially in the last 50 years) is the fact that the US has killed by large, far more people than all Islamic Terrorist attacks in the same period of 50 years. And while nobody is ever going to defend a thug like Bin Laden, the right pretends that we not only ignore US attrocities, but that we give em our blessing as good actions. Fuck that.
Dave /#
Sergio: I disagree that the left has a lock on moral purity, having supported such mass murders as Stalin, Mao, and Fidel. I don’t think it is a question of hypocrisy. There is blame enough to go around for everyone. Why is it that leftists are so obsessed with selectively looking at the past? Socialism is a proven failure. If leftists had any good ideas about building the future there would be some track record they could point to. Then I might be a leftist too. They have none so far so they just try to tear down others who are more successful.
Alex /#
Dave: One can be in the left whilst still not being a fan of Stalin and co., as well as not even being in favour of socialism. This is in exactly the same way as those on the right don’t have to be fans of Hitler and fascism.
The problem that the left finds with the right, as far as I can see, is that anyone who is either non-American or left gets a whole lot of attention for any crime that they might commit, whereas those on the American right who commit similar crimes are always conveniently ignored.
That is Jacobs original point, that the right has a habit of conveniently ignoring atrocities committed by its own supporters.
Oh, and as to the ‘proven record’ of the left, have you ever actually looked at the average (median, not mode) standard of life in right countries like the USA? Its far lower than more left-wing countries such as Norway and Switzerland.
freeman /#
Non-sequitur? Give me a break!
Both men committed acts of terror, resulting in mass murder. It’s that simple. To deny this seems, to me at least, to suggest that too many people are still blinded by the flag.
Maybe part of the reason why self-proclaimed lefties focus on people within our own borders is due to some feeling of responsibility towards people of power within our own borders. The actions of American politicians are the business of Americans and should be scrutinized.
Additionally, history texts always seem to whitewash objectionable acts committed by the home country. This is a practice that constantly needs to be pointed out and rejected.
Dave /#
I can see that the familiar lines have been drawn. The familiar reasons have been proffered.
I don’t think Norway is a particularly good example of a country we should copy. In fact it is an isolated homogeneous country whose primary exports are fish and oil from their vast offshore resources. Norway is a country, like those in the Middle East, with a shameful heritage as imperialists and conquerors, the home of the Viking. You don’t see them pining for past glories and trying to kill all those who stand in their way. Where are the Viking warriors ready to conquer the world and restore the glories of previous Viking hegemony?
I have reason to believe that the Vikings may have raped my female ancestors yet I have yet to hear any liberals demand I get paid any reparations. Why do liberals cover up these inequities? The Muslims should be the ones who model themselves after the Norwegians, not the USA.
Switzerland, located in the mountains has always pursued an isolationist policy, not even option for the U.S. In fact Switzerland didn’t even take sides in WW II, though it did act as banker and financier for the Nazis. Do you really want to be like them? Like Norway they are any thing but multicultural. Comparing these countries to the US is just another example of leftist sophistry.
But seriously, studying history is fun and things haven’t always been fair. I do not dispute your moral principles, but really what can I to do about something that happened when I was a baby and you were probably even younger than that. The future is what we can deal with and if historical analysis can help I am all for it. The problems with the look back approach besides being incapable of changing anything include hindsight bias, polemical one-sidedness and selective indignation. All sorts of false comparisons and distortions are apt to arise. I don’t automatically buy them and neither should you.
John T. Kennedy /#
Let’s say an ICBM would soon be launched from Moscow targeting your city. Yhe only way you can prevent it is by a pre-emptive nuclear strike on Moscow. Would you say that morality requires you that you prefer the lives of innocent citizens of Moscow to your own and your own neigbors? Does morality require that you die in this case?
Sergio Méndez /#
Dave:
The problem is that today there are few leftists that support guys like Stalin or Mao, or that try to make an apology for their crimes. On the other side I see right wingers (specially US right wingers) constantly excusing any US foreign decision the US takes, no matter if it was based on lies, no matter how many lifes those lies cost (being the exception the Clinton administration: not because he was lying or being attrocious, but because he was Clinton and he was trying to help muslims against orthodox christian serbians). Worse, the US right wingers not only pretend that we do not criticize the US most evil acts, but that we celebrate them! Imagine a leftist not only defending Stalin, but asking us to celebrate his actions…
What is more fun of all this, is that right wingers, who scream all the time against moral relativism, pretend that their absolute moral principles do not apply to their own country. That may not be technically moral relativism, but it has the stinking odor of hypocresy…But as I always said…the right wingers are really moralist of the first order: they have not only one, but two morals…
John T Kennedy:
What if Alien Vampires came from another dimension to slaughter us and some mad scientist had the means to stop them? Wouldn’t it be fine to torture the mad scientist to obtain his knowledge to stop the Alien Vampires? Lets get serious (BTW, ICBM’s are never launched nearby populated areas, but from deep underground silos on unpopulated ones).
Alex /#
Dave: I don’t understand what Norway exports has to do with its social security model, which is what I thought you were critisizing. Furthermore, all countries have imperialistic pasts, but its only the more recent ones which anyone is apologising for, or, as has been pointed out, people are even congratulating. No-one is calling for reparations, only honesty and consistency.
Again, in the case of Switzerland, you’ve mentioned their role in supporting the Nazi’s, but conveniently ignored your own. Fanta is the name of Coca-Cola when it wanted to operate in Nazi Germany, and IBM supplied a system for the Nazi’s to track Jews in concentration camps. Before you start again, I’m not saying that the USA is worse than others here, only that it never gets any blame.
Diane /#
I have always thought that Truman’s use of the bomb was horrific. I know that the grandchildren of the survivors were plagued with thyroid cancer, so it was a gift to democracy that kept on giving.
I have discussed this matter, or seen it discussed, with Democrats (of which I am not one) for years, and they always say–just about to a person–that Truman was a hero and that he had to use the bomb.
I admit to not being a military expert, but I can find no moral reason for obliterating two cities and their residents and causing multiple hardships for generations to come. But then, I am a pacifist, so what the hell do I know?
Discussed at www.radgeek.com /#
Geekery Today:
Laura J. /#
Setting aside the question of whom it’s with, is this person seriously suggesting that ordinary, moderately rational human beings should have any desire whatsoever to be in a foxhole in the first place?
… sadly, the answer is probably