Lazy linking on Leftist labor libertarianism
Here's a pretty old post from the blog archives of Geekery Today; it was written about 19 years ago, in 2005, on the World Wide Web.
Try saying that three times fast.
For a while now I’ve been urging libertarians and the labor movement to take a more serious and sympathetic look at one another. (Cf. GT 2004-05-01: Free the Unions (and all political prisoners!), GT 2005-03-23: El pueblo unido jamás será vencido! and GT 2005-03-31: Anarquistas por La Causa for representative examples.) Just as with radical libertarianism and radical feminism I think that the supposedly obvious and unbridgeable opposition between the two is the result more of terminological difficulties and shifting political alliances over the course of the 20th century than any deep or principled gulf. The best way to see this is with more engaged discussion: fewer polemics, more history, more earnest questioning, and more listening. So I’m excited to see a lot of interesting new material just in the past couple of weeks from libertarians (mostly but not exclusively left-libertarians) trying to get clear on the questions and hammer out some of the answers about the prospect for a libertarianism that has a place for workers organizing freely, and a wildcat labor movement that frees itself from the smothering patronage of the State. Here’s a bit of lazy linking to the discussion so far.
Brad Spangler (2005-12-03): War, Socialism, and Precision in Thinking writes on the need to disentangle the different meanings attached to the words
capitalism
andsocialism
(each of them has at least one traditional meaning that’s perfectly consistent with the peaceful economic cooperation, and one that’s directly antagonistic to it). Brad protests the fuzzy thinking that typically comes about from running the terms freely together, and urges libertarians to realize thatIf anything that is voluntary on all sides is, at the very least, acceptable to the point that it at least can not righteously be opposed by force, then one has to come to grips that a stateless society will have
capitalistic
andsocialistic
aspects in practice. Hippy communes. Farmers co-ops. Employee owned enterprises. Workers syndicates. Unions. … Ultimately, vulgar libertarians, on this point anyway, fail to distinguish libertarianism from personal preference for a particular class of business models.Roderick Long at Austro-Athenian Empire (2005-12-04): Freedom and the Firm asks
What will firms look like in a free society?
He points out the important trade-off that you face when you decide whether to get business done with a centralized, amalgamated firm, or a small-scale, decentralized operations like family shops and worker’s co-ops: larger size can mean lower transaction costs, but it also comes at the cost of calculational chaos. (The incentive problems and knowledge problems that libertarians have pointed out in central planning don’t evaporate when the central planning is done by corporate rather than government bureaucrats.) Roderick points out some of the ways in which state capitalism distorts the trade-off in favor of big, centralized firms; Leviathan, as always, is Behemoth’s greatest ally:We don’t have a free market, however; instead we have a highly regulated market. For familiar reasons, such regulations hamper the less affluent more than the more affluent, and so successful firms will tend to become somewhat insulated from competition by less established firms, thus removing one check on their inefficiency. And as Kevin Carson points out, regulatory standardisation also decreases competition among the successful firms — a form of de facto cartelisation. Government regulation thus lowers the costs associated with size and hierarchy more than it lowers the associated benefits; it stands to reason, then, that firms in a genuine free-market context could be expected to be smaller and less hierarchical than they tend to be today. This is doubly true once one takes into account the increased competition for workers that a less regulated economy would presumably see (assuming that workers generally prefer less hierarchical work environments).
Kevin Carson (2005-12-08): Socialist Definitional Free-for-All: Part I reviews a recent donnybrook over the meaning of
socialism
and whether voluntary workers’ co-ops and other forms of state-free direct worker control over the means of production are (1) instances of socialism, and (2) compatible with libertarianism. Bithead makes an ass of himself; Knapp holds his own; John T. Kennedy directs some good critical questions at Knapp; Knapp offers some good replies. Carson adds his ownExtended Commentary,
placing the debate in the historical context of the thought of late-19th and early-20th century libertarians such as Thomas Hodgskin, Benjamin Tucker, and Franz Oppenheimer, who explicitly considered themselves (1) socialists, (2) supporters of organized labor, and (3) radical advocates of laissez-faire in economics. Carson also offers some interesting historical notes on the individualists’ economic thoughtIndividualist anarchism, the strand of socialism that most closely approximates my own position, doesn’t place that much importance on ownership of the means of production (leaving aside the views of Tucker et al on occupancy-based ownership of land, anyway). Although some strands of mutualism tended toward a much more active affinity for cooperative organization of production, and considered explicitly cooperativist arrangements would likely predominate in a stateless society, the American individualist branch of mutualism placed much more emphasis on the conditions of exchange than the organization of production. … What mattered to him was that, without state enforcement of special privileges for capital, and without artificial scarcity rents resulting from such privileges, the natural wage of labor in a free market would be its full product. And without the state’s enforcement of artificial scarcity in land and capital, jobs would be competing for workers instead of the other way around.
And Carson points out that the debate is often confused by the fact that all sides tend to talk about
coercion
andproperty
as if everyone already had a perfectly clear and common conception of what sorts of things can count as your property and under what conditions. Libertarians tend to broadly agree on central cases, but when the debate is about something more substantial than name-tags or banner colors, it usually comes down to substantive disagreements over peripheral cases:All the parties to the debate tend to throw around the term coercion, in discussing whether coercion is essential to collective ownership of the means of production, without addressing the prior question of what constitutes coercion. Now I would argue that whether the establishment and enforcement of collective ownership is
coercive
depends on what set of property rights rules you start out with. Forcibly invading someone’srightful
property, by definition, is coercion; but using force to defend one’srightful
property claims against invasion is not. So the question of whether force is coercive depends on who therightful owner
is. When the parties to the dispute adhere to two separate sets of rules for property rights, they will disagree on who is the aggressor and who is the defender.Kevin Carson (2005-12-08): Socialist Definitional Free-for-All, Part II offers a lengthy follow-up where he assembles quotes from posts Roderick, Brad, and me on definitions of
socialism
andcapitalism,
the size of firms, and organized labor, and adds his own exposition and commentary. Among other things, he points out one of the important ways in which unionization can serve as a road to, rather than a roadblock against, workers adjusting pay, security, and conditions to something like the marginal product of their labor:Regardless of the long-run market incentives to pay labor its full product and treat people like actual human beings, in the short run the uncertainty and potential disruption of being an at-will employee can be quite a hassle. For the benefit of those who have been living on Planet Cato these many years and never had direct experience working for a boss, I’d like to point out that the average boss can fuck your life up in some really unpleasant ways before the market disadvantages of doing so are finally brought home to him. And, as some radical historians of workplace relations have pointed out, a management policy of harassing selected subgroups of workers and dividing them against each other may produce benefits, in the form of reduced labor solidarity and bargaining power, that outweigh the alleged
irrationality
costs. On the other hand, the benefits of contractually-enforced stability and predictability are just as real to a wage-laborer as they are to the parties to any other kind of contract.
That’s a rather dense thicket of interlinking posts; moving aside from this mutualist admiration society, there’s also been good discussion elsewhere:
Joshua Holmes at No Treason (2005-12-09): Open Question about Libertarians and Unions asks
What do libertarians have against labour unions? This question struck me the other day (because it was better than studying for Business Associations) and I wondered why libertarians have so much bile for labour unions.
Holmes has a good breakdown of common corporatarian objections to unions and responses to them. A vigorous go-around on semantics, tactics, and principles follows in the comments.Irfan Khawaja at Theory and Practice (2005-12-15): The Taylor Law and the Transit Strike: Some Questions asks for further discussion from libertarians and classical liberals about the status of strikes and work stoppages, and laws (such as the Taylor Law) which ban strikes by government employees:
Is a strike–as Howard Dickman suggests in his book Industrial Democracy in America–just a glorified form of breach of contract? In that case, libertarianism justifies strike-breaking and scabdom, period. (Cf. Truman’s breaking up the railway and miner’s strikes in 1946.) Or does striking have a deeper justification in libertarian principles? To the best of my knowledge, there isn’t much normative discussion of this subject in the contemporary libertarian literature–a shame, considering the centrality of the issues.
In comments, I suggest a focus on questions about individual rights to refuse to work and move on to the status of strikes from there; Irfan replies with more helpful questions and commentary.
This doesn’t end here. A week from now — 28 December 2005, 11:15 a.m.-1:15 p.m — The Molinari Society will be holding a symposium at APA Eastern Division in New York. The topic is going to be the debate between thick
and thin
libertarianism, and the thick
side will be represented by Jack Ross’s Labor and Liberty: A Lost Ideal and an Unlikely New Alliance. Ross will read and I’ll be commenting on the essay. (Shorter me: the outline of Ross’s argument is correct and important; I’m not so confident about the details and I think there are some important questions and distinctions to be raised about the kind of labor organizing that libertarians should ally with.)
Hope to see you there!
Labyrus /#
Interesting post. The really divisive point (at least theoretically) between anarchism and (non-socialist) libertarianism is Property, yet far too often both camps discuss property as something that either exists or doesn’t, while in reality property rights are just that – entitlements to do several different things with certain capital.
If you’ve never read P-J Proudhon’s What is Property?, I’d recomend it. Although many of the examples refer to a rather different economy than today’s, I think a lot of the arguments are still worth considering.
I still think any discussion of property as a “right” needs to first justify why anyone has such rights, that to me seems to be the flaw in the libertarian analysis. I can accept rationally that people have an ethical right to access the means to their own survival a lot more easily than I can accept that people have a natural right to monopolize what is potentially someone else’s means of survival.
Discussed at freedomdemocrats.org /#
Freedom Democrats:
Roderick T. Long /#
Labyrus writes: “I can accept rationally that people have an ethical right to access the means to their own survival a lot more easily than I can accept that people have a natural right to monopolize what is potentially someone else’s means of survival.”
The problem is that anything, even your own body, is potentially someone else’s means of survival. Suppose I’m starving, and the only way I can avoid death is (not to kill you but) to cut off, say, your arm and eat that. Would I be justified in doing that? I don’t think so. And that at least opens the door to a theory of property rights.
Roderick T. Long /#
Labortarian! Damn, why didn’t I think of that?
Labyrus /#
That could open the door to property rights, but I think it can also justify a more anachist theory of self-management.
Giovanni Baldelli’s theory of “usrufruct” replaces property with an ownership system based on utility – if you own some means of production, and aren’t using it in any way, someone else has a right to use it. This only covers property in the Marxian sense of “land, labour capital”, personal affects would still be managed the same way. So the arm is still mine: a) because I use it b) because it’s my personal property c) because I have the same right to survival as you
The parecon perspective is that people should have a say in economic decisions proportional to how much they are affected by them, so in this case, I’m affected seriously in the long term by the loss of an arm, (and presumably starving myself, otherwise you would just steal my food), so in that case, or pretty much any other decision involving my own body, I have the final say.
The same can not be said of other people’s bodies (or the labour they do with them), or of land and natural resources, or of industrial capital. All of these could potentially be anyone’s livelehood, so social ownership seems to be a far more desirable system.
It seems to me that most theories of property primarily justify it because it makes markets work, and I’m not really convinced that markets are a desirable allocation system at all.
Another criticism of market allocation (this one also comes from Parecon) is the balooning of wealth differences it encourages. In any exchange, even a totally free one, if one party has market power and the other doesn’t, the party with market power can afford to “hold out” longer than the party without. This can be observed on a global scale with the declining terms of trade faced by most primary agricultural industries in the developing world, where prices have increased very slowly compared to the prices of developed goods.
Roderick T. Long /#
Well, it depends what counts as “use.” It seems to be a matter of degree. Right now I’m sitting and typing; so I’m using my hands, but not using my feet. Does that mean that right now I have more right to my hands than to my feet? Of course I’m using my feet in a broader sense, they’re instruments in my longer-term projects, but the same could be said of external property I’ve homesteaded but am not using just this minute.
I think the boundaries of the self are more illuminatingly identified with the boundaries of one’s projects than with the boundaries of one’s physical body (indeed I would say that one’s body just is one of one’s ongoing projects); though certainly the boundaries are fuzzy, and some things are closer to the core and others to the periphery. Still, I have a hard time seeing how “utility” could give me the right to use the products of your labour yet stop short of giving me the right to use your body (which after all is also at this point mostly the product of your labour).
As for markets causing vast differences in wealth, what’s the evidence that they do this in the absence of state intervention? If you look at existing wealth disparities today — either between individuals or between countries — how many of them got that way without the benefit of massive state violence on behalf of the winners?
Roderick T. Long /#
On the starvation example, okay, let’s alter it slightly.
You’ve eaten recently. I haven’t eaten for many, many days. Neither of us has any food right now. (Stipulate that this whole situation is not the fault of either of us.) We know a supply of food will be dropped to us at a certain point in time. That time is close enough for you to survive till then without eating, but I will die if I don’t est till then. We have an excellent medical kit, so I propose to cut some chunks of meat off you and eat them, but I can sew you up well enough afterward that you’re almost certain to avoid any permanent damage — so your longterm survival abilities won’t be impaired.
Yeah, I know it’s a far-fetched example, but still — it seems to me that if “utility” settled what rights people had (not just played a role in specifying their precise boundaries — that’s fine by me — but actually settled them), then under these described circumstances I would have the right to cut chunks off your body without your consent. But that seems to reduce you to the status of a slave in a way that strikes me as deeply inconsistent with any spirit of anarchism.
Alex Gregory /#
(I’ll hopefully reply in more depth after Christmas)
“But that seems to reduce you to the status of a slave in a way that strikes me as deeply inconsistent with any spirit of anarchism.”
Two points:
1) It depends what you mean by anarchism, since although Radgeek is some kind of individualist anarchist, some of us are far more communitarian, and see things like ‘rights to not be interfered with’ as part of the problem. If you want a genuinely freely participatory and egalitarian society, it seems to me that you need to allow some people to lose out in order for others to gain (assuming that the gain is larger than the loss, obviously). This might be an extreme example of that, but I’m not convinced it destroys the idea that things ought to be used in ways that maximise utility. (thats more assertion than argument, but I just don’t think that extreme communitarian practises are necessarily opposed to anarchism as you suggest)
2) Couldn’t Baldelli (or whomever else) argue that ‘utility’ /includes/ things like ‘personal autonomy’, so that whilst the fundamental point that we should treat property in terms of how it increases utility is true, the utility that we maximise includes some notion of individuals being granted certain freedoms? It seems to me that such an account would narrow the divide between libertarianism and usufruct – perhaps allowing for a more palpatable half-way point.
Thanks, Alex
Roderick T. Long /#
I don’t really see the issue as one of individualist vs. communitarian approaches. Of course both of those terms have multiple meanings — but as I see it, individualism implies communitarianism (since individuals are social beings) and communitarianism implies individualism (since a genuine community must be based on voluntary rather than exploitative relationships).
As for an egalitarian society, I’ve argued elsewhere that it’s precisely egalitarianism that necessarily implies “rights not to be interfered with.”
On the second point: certainly utilitarianism becomes more palatable when things like autonomy are included in the good to be maximised. But treating autonomy only as an aim to be promoted (and not also as a limit to be respected) opens the door to trade-offs where it becomes permissible to sacrifice the autonomy of minorities for the sake of promoting the autonomy of majorities.
I think autonomy viewed that way ceases to be autonomy at all; one can’t consistently grasp the value of autonomy while treating people as objects.
Alex Gregory /#
I call my (quasi-utilitarian) view communitarian since I believe that the health of the community depends on the idea that individuals should be willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good. I don’t think thats exploitative (especially if it were not enforced, but rather recognised as part of a sensible moral code, and therefore abided by voluntarily) – but maybe you do.
(I’ll read your interesting looking article soon – a bit short on time right now)
And what kinds of trade-off of that kind would you find worrying?
Roderick T. Long /#
I can’t see how that follows. I don’t know of any rights theory that says it’s a duty to minimise all risk of violating rights. “Don’t voluntarily do X” doesn’t entail “Don’t do anything that increases, however slightly, the chance of doing X.”
Well, sure, but who ever claimed that “morality is merely a matter of failing to interfere with one another”? Libertarianism isn’t a theory about which duties we have, it’s a theory about which duties may legitimately be enforced by violence.
Alex Gregory /#
Re: Your article
It looks to me that rather than arguing that
, you’ve in fact argued that IF inequality in authority is worse than inequality in ownership (contentious, though I’m not sure I’d deny it), and further, IF the choice is between egalitarianism of rights and egalitarianism of property, then we should choose inequality of property.But its a false dichotomy: I’m arguing that both egalitarianism of property and egalitarianism of rights are inadequate. The former, as I’m sure you’d agree, involves far too much intervention in people’s lives, but the latter implies something just as bad: that no intervention is better than some, even if the intervention benefits everyone.
Think of it this way: Imagine that I live in a society where we have a strong belief in rights. I’m cooking dinner for my child and some of her friends. Now I have a choice: I can either cook a nice meal for them, or I can give them dry bread. If I give them the bread, then the chance of any getting ill is 0%. If I cook a nice meal on the other hand, then perhaps I’ll put something in that one of them is allergic to, or I’ll fail to cook the meat through properly (accidents do happen after all) – the chances of one getting ill rises to 1%.
According to the rights theorist, I should give them bread, for it is the choice that minimises my chances of breaking someone’s rights. But this threatens to destroy all social bonds! By doing one-another favours, and being busy-bodies, we improve all of our lives. But if we maintain fundamental rights to certain things, then the rational course of action for us all is to avoid any form of contact, even potentially beneficial.
Thats obviously not an argument for utility-maximising morality, but rather a negative one against the idea that morality is merely a matter of failing to interfere with one-another. Perhaps a nice half-way point can be found (and thats why I have an interest in a consequentialist valuing autonomy), but if it can’t, I’d rather we treated each other well most of the time, but occasionally required unfair sacrifice than that we didn’t have community at all.
Sergio Méndez /#
I have a question for Charles:
What are the definitions of
and libertarianism?Alex Gregory /#
Maybe I’ll just ill-read on the topic, but how do you avoid that conclusion? Aren’t you either going to have to set some arbitrary limit on how much risk taking is acceptable (e.g. a 5% chance of risking breaking someone’s rights, never more), or claim that any risk taking is fine, which is absurd: If I push you into the road, and know that there’s a 1% chance of the cars breaking in time, surely I’m still culpable when you die?
Sorry, I hadn’t taken it this way. Of course, now I’m simply confused as to how you define violence as distinct from other coercive actions: It strikes me that the difference is in degree, not kind. Is insulting someone violence? Spitting? Pushing? Withholding food? Withholding friendship? Locking them in a room? Looking them out of a room? Convincing them its their moral duty?
I’m also a little lost as to why you might think that some moral duties are enforcable by violence, and others aren’t. Would you maintain this no matter how small the breach of an enforcable right, and no matter how large the breach of an unenforcable right?
Thanks for the interesting reply, Alex
Eugene Plawiuk /#
Thanks for the Libertarian Labour debate links I have continued it on my blog with my own interpretations of this from my libertarian communist perspective
Rad Geek /#
Sergio:
To put it very roughly, thin libertarianism is the claim that libertarian politics should be narrowly concerned with getting everyone to adhere to the non-aggression principle; thick libertarianism is the claim that libertarian politics should be concerned with, or integrated into, a broader set of political or cultural commitments (for example, many paleos think that libertarianism needs to be integrated with a broader program of cultural conservatism and Christian traditionalism; Objectivists think that it needs to be integrated with a broad acceptance of Objectivist philosophy; I think that it needs to be integrated with radical feminism, antiauthoritarian leftism, etc.).
Thin libertarians typically claim that the narrow focus keeps libertarianism from getting bogged down in unnecessary culture wars and leaves people to peacefully do their own thing; thick libertarians typically claim that some thicker set of commitments is, in some sense, necessary or at least important for a libertarian society to be created, or to be sustained, or to flourish. (There are actually a number of different dimensions in which you might have debates between thick and thin, and many different claims that might be made; fleshing it all out would be better for a post or a paper than for a comment box, though.)
Hope this helps.
Roderick T. Long /#
Alex:
I don’t see how this is a special problem for rights theory. It’s a quite general problem for any theory. Every time you drive a car you’re increasing the risk, very slightly, of running over somebody; every time you serve somebody hot soup you’re running a slight risk of scalding them. Now just about every moral theory will agree that (absent special circumstances) you shouldn’t run people over or scald them; but nevertheless, just about every moral theory will say it’s okay to drive a car or serve soup. So every moral theory has to recognise that the wrongness of doing X doesn’t entail the duty to minimise the risk of doing X.
So just as a matter of common sense, just about everybody — utilitarian, rights theorist, or anything else — is going to agree that it’s okay to run small risks and not big ones (and that a given degree of risk becomes less acceptable the worse the outcome being risked). Is there any non-arbitrary way to quantify the precise cut-off between acceptable and unacceptable risk? No, of course there isn’t; here we enter the realm of individual judgment, social custom, etc. But again, this problem is a familiar and pervasive feature of the human condition; it’s not a special problem for rights theory.
I was using
and roughly as synonyms, as libertarians tend to do (though our use of the word conflicts with standard usage and so should probably be abandoned to avoid confusion — most people use to involve getting people to do something, so if I just shoot somebody for the heck of it that wouldn’t be coercion in ordinary usage, but it would be in libertarian usage.). My basic point was that from the fact that an action is wrong, it doesn’t follow that you shouldn’t be allowed to do it. No libertarian approves of every action that s/he thinks people should be left free to do (just as defending freedom of speech doesn’t mean you agree with everything people use their freedom to say).Exactly what counts as violence/coercion and what doesn’t is of course an issue of major debate among libertarians — well, of course not just among libertarians. But there are some obvious paradigm cases: basically, the things police do to you if you violate the law — handcuffing, clubbing, arresting, incarcerating. The central idea is one of invading your personal boundaries, subordinating you to my will.
As for withholding food and so forth, that raises the question of property rights, with which we started, which is essentially the question: which things, if any, are so related to you that subordinating them to my will counts as subordinating you to my will? (My own answer to that question is roughly Lockean.)
For the reason I gave before: equality in authority. You’re my moral equal, so I don’t have authority over you, I don’t have the right to subordinate you forcibly to my will. If you invade my sphere of authority, I have the right to kick you out, and if you invade someone else’s sphere of authority I have the right to act as agent of their behalf to kick you out — but as long as you’re not engaging in aggression I can’t use force against you. So the only moral duty that can be enforced is the duty not to aggress, not to initiate force; enforcing any other duty would be treating people as slaves.
I would also want to distinguish between violence and power, or perhaps better between violent and nonviolent forms of power. The libertarian view is that violent forms of power may legitimately be fought by violence, while nonviolent forms of power should be fought by other means. This doesn’t mean we think nonviolent forms of power are unimportant; as Charles and I have written elsewhere (though I should note that the fact that we co-authored the below does not mean he will agree with all that I’ve just said above):
Alex again:
I’m not sure what you mean by
and here. And as the concept of is usually used in political contexts, is a contradiction in terms — rights just are, by definition, those claims that may be permissible enforced.Rad Geek /#
Roderick:
Alex:
Alex, I’m no expert, but I do suspect that slavery and violent cannibalism are inconsistent with the spirit of any version of anarchism or communitarianism worth defending.
Alex Gregory /#
Roderick,
I suspect its a problem for very few theories actually (virtue theories and consequentialists at least), but here I’ll just point out that the utiliarian simply does not have this problem. They can weigh up (in the car example) the high chance of it aiding many people in lots of small ways against the low chance of it accidentally killing someone. Comparing the two is precisely what a utility calculus is for.
Its only when you introduce absolute prohibitions on certain actions that it starts to get murky.
Sorry, perhaps I didn’t phrase that so well. Why is it that property rights are enforcable by violence, but anti-racism is not? The answer
doesn’t really answer the question – why is it that equality in authority regarding material goods is desirable but equality in authority regarding racism is not? (i.e. why is it not permissible for any of us to use violence to combat racism (in any circumstance where that would be effective) but permissible for any of us to use violence to enforce property rights) What gives the special priority to property rights over other (presumably worse) impositions on people?Again, sorry if I was unclear. I’ll take an example. Imagine Hitler owns (as in he has legitimate property rights over) everything in the world (don’t ask how that might happen!). However, rather than breaching any property rights or rights to life, he’s merely using his vast wealth to operate a huge propaganda campaign that induces everyone else to commit various evil deeds.
Are we allowed to stop him by violence? Doing so would break your ‘no violence over property rights’ rule. If you maintain that some moral obligations are enforceable by violence, and others aren’t, are you really going to adopt the extreme conclusion that no matter how bad the breach of the unenforceable moral duty by the other party and no matter how small the breech of the enforceable moral duty required by us, its still wrong to intervene?
Radgeek,
Isn’t that a bit of a straw man? What I said was that in the unlikely event that violent cannabalism leads to better consequences than no violent cannabalism, then its permitted. Likewise slavery. But both of these are incredibly counter-to-fact hypotheticals. I’m hardly suggesting that we should all run out now and start claiming slaves and eating one-another.
Alex
Alex Gregory /#
Yes – thats a much better example! Thanks.
“The problem for consequentialists to answer is how much stealing is permissible before it discourages the scientist from producing any more goods”
Though hardly a theoretical rather than practical problem: that is, its a problem not for consequentialism as such, but rather in attempting to apply it well.
Stefan /#
I’m sorry, you’re going to have to come up with a more coherent example than one that starts out with
. Better, I will actually present a standard one for you (with my own tweaks):Suppose that your wife’s three-year-old son is dying of a painful disease and will soon perish. You work for an evil, racist, scum-of-the-earth, greedy scientist who has just manufactured the cure and produced about a hundred vials of it in his lab. It’s a trivial matter for you to walk into the lab and take a vial of the cure. The evil racist scientist will not sell at any price because he wants to do further research before releasing the cure onto the market (so as to maximize profit). He also hates your racial group, as well as you personally. Is it moral to steal just one of the hundred vials to save the life of your son?
Since I did the work of recalling the example, I will allow Roderick to answer it!
A related question is to iterate the above scenario. In the iterated case, the scientist produces a new result or product every week and every week you have the choice of stealing from him or not stealing from him. The problem for consequentialists to answer is how much stealing is permissible before it discourages the scientist from producing any more goods.
Stefan /#
Of course the mirror example would be: Is it moral to appropriate almost everything that a man owns (say, the home and equipment of a factory-owner) if by doing so you could extend your lifespan by a day.